The Ultra-Marathon Educator

UW Tacoma Assistant Professor Ellen Bayer has a passion for the outdoors. Bayer's love of nature guides her work both in and out of the classroom. She teaches literature courses at UW Tacoma and leads her students on excursions into the natural world. Bayer recounts the story of a student who'd looked at Mt. Rainier her entire life but had never actually seen the mountain up close. This experience lead Bayer to include field trips in her curriculum. Finally, Bayer discusses why she took up running in her mid-thirties and recounts the difficulties she faced while competing in her first 100 mile ultra-marathon.

Transcript

Ellen: 0:01

I think if you can empower someone to access a space that they've felt marginalized from or excluded from, I think that that can be really powerful.

Maria: 0:13

From UW Tacoma. This is Paw'd Defiance. Welcome to Pod Defiance where we don't lecture, but we do educate. We're joined today by Assistant Professor Ellen Bayer. Dr. Bayer teaches literature courses here at UWT when she's not in the class Dr. Bayer can usually be found outside. She's an nature enthusiast and also competes in ultra-marathons. So today we have Ellen Bayer, hello Ellen Bayer. Would you like to say a little bit more about yourself?

Ellen: 0:51

So I'm Ellen Bayer and I'm an assistant professor at UW Tacoma. I teach American literature, environmental literature in nature writing. My main areas of focus with teaching and with my research. And this is, um, let's see. This is my fifth year at UW Tacoma and I, yeah, I love it. In terms of stuff outside of teaching, I, uh, I'm an ultra marathon runner and that's really kind of the core of my outside work activity. Um, yeah, but I also just love being, being outside in the beautiful Northwest as much as possible. And, uh, I'm also a bit of a cat lady. I have three cats at home.

Maria: 1:34

So you say you moved to Washington about five years ago, where were the other places that you live?

Speaker 1: 1:39

So I've lived in Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. Uh, as a kid I grew up in kind of suburban Ohio outside of Cincinnati and also in rural Indiana in a little town outside of a little town called Brookville. And then I went to college. I did my undergrad in Kentucky in two different places. One was in Lexington, Kentucky where I was an equine science major. And then I also went to Northern Kentucky University where I was, uh, an English major.

Maria: 2:08

So what brought you to Washington?

Ellen: 2:11

Yeah, so I had a job outside of grad school at Depaul University in Indiana. That was my first job, but it wasn't tenure track. So I was always on the lookout for a tenure track position. And when I applied to UW Tacoma, I was a finalist at three other universities and Tacoma was just the best fit for me. And so that brought me out here, drove cross country with at that time four cats in the car and drove across the country from Indiana to Washington. Yeah.

Maria: 2:44

So, so far have you enjoyed Washington?

Ellen: 2:47

Yeah, I mean I love everything about Washington. Um, it's, you know, as we talked about in the car, I love that you can be by the water, you can be up in the mountains, you can be a forest, you can be on a glacier. I mean there's so many different ecosystems here and coming from the Midwest, which, you know, it has its own certain kinds of beauty to it for sure. I don't want to dismiss the, the landscape of the Midwest. Out here, you know, we have mountains and you know, you can see whales and I can run along Rustin Way and see seals and it's just for someone who grew up in the landlocked corn fields of the Midwest. It's just really exciting. So I'd love the outdoors here. Um, and yeah, I mean there's so many other things to love about the Northwest, but for me, that's what really makes it feel like home.

Maria: 3:38

So what did you get your Ph.D. in and why?

Ellen: 3:41

My Ph.D. Is actually in American literature, 19th century American literature. And my focus area in grad school was in intersections between literature and the arts. And so when I was already started on my dissertation, I took, I just decided to audit a class on eco criticism and environmental literature just because I was curious about it. It was kind of a new and emerging field and I loved it so much, but at that point I was already starting my dissertation and it was too late to do something different. And so, uh, it's just a, basically a field that I have more or less learned on my own n my spare time. I'm building a foundation and eco criticism and environmental literature and nature writing, um, that I've basically built my pedagogy and my research now on, uh, even though my degree isn't necessarily in that.

Maria: 4:35

Yeah. So you said research, can you explain about the research part? Is it, is it, is it something that you're starting or you're already working on right now?

Ellen: 4:44

Yep. So I have a lot of different projects that I've worked on since I've been at UW Tacoma. Um, and a lot of them are influenced by looking at how, um, environmental concerns overlap with literary texts. And so one example is looking at how in the 19th century, um, literary texts, including, I look a lot at Edgar Allen Poe's writing and I look at how these literary texts were promoting, um, what type of plants people should put in their gardens and on their property and looking at how people were making choices based on the aesthetic of it and because it was what they deemed beautiful as opposed to maybe what would do well in that environment. Yeah. And so it ends up bringing about a lot of environmental problems and having these broader consequences because people were choosing things because they're pretty and not because it's a good fit for the landscape. And so looking at how literary texts and environmental concerns overlap, um, in people's choices. And we still see that today. You know, if you look around town, and you'll see English ivy over all the trees and overtaking people's yards and houses and fences and all of that was was brought here and it's, you know, in the rain forest on the Olympic Peninsula, it's killing trees and it's here because you know, people thought it'd be pretty to have in their yard.

Maria: 6:11

So going back to you as a professor, you teach classes and you'd have UW Tacoma. What are some of the things that you teach and how do you structure your teaching?

Ellen: 6:24

So I teach a lot of classes that deal with nature writing and environmental literature and that's really, I mean my, my real passion and what I love to teach. And so I will offer twice a year, I offer like just an introductory nature writing class. And so we'll read environmental literature and nature writing texts and we'll also listen to a podcast that's based out of Tacoma called Boldly Went, it's an outdoor adventure, storytelling podcast. And so my students are learning kind of the genre, they're learning about the different types of ways people experience the outdoors. And then for their final project, they have to develop their own story about an outdoor adventure. And so their final project, part of their assignments is they have to have an outdoor adventure of some sort. And so they do all kinds of different things. And some of them, a lot of them actually have maybe never even been on a hike before. And so it's the first opportunity to do something like that or maybe go camping for the first time or go kayaking for the first time or go out on a trail by themselves for the first time. So it's a great opportunity for students to connect to nature and have a really impactful experience and I'm challenge themselves to try something new and then they also then have a story to tell. And so that, that in that class, we have a storytelling event at the end of the quarter and I'm working with Boldly Went to create a space on their website for students' stories to be featured. Um, so I tried to do stuff like that in all my classes. So in my wilderness memoir class, we read books, you know, memoirs by authors who have gone out into the wilderness. And then my students, as you might imagine have to go have a wilderness experience and they get to define the parameters of that, what you know, they can kind of determine what wilderness means to them and then they come back and they share and document that project in some way. And so they've done it in all kinds of ways, whether that's been in paintings or some people have done music or film or poetry, short stories, if not a whole variety of kinds of creative ways of documenting that experience. And so I would say that those are kind of the cornerstones of my courses. They always involve some type of experiential components and then reporting back in a creative way.

Maria: 8:53

Do think this way, it's more effective the way you're teaching is like, you know, they have to go outside and do a little bit of exploring rather than just being in classroom and getting lectured about some environmental stuff. Do you think this way is more effective?

Ellen: 9:06

Yeah, I mean I think that's an interesting question. And you know, um, if we think about what effective means, right? And so I think what it helps students do is it helps them. Um, I, I try to provide a lot of resources because a lot of our students just don't have access to the outdoors and they maybe don't have the resources to access them. And so I think, um, it empowers students to reach into an area where maybe they felt excluded from in the past. Maybe they felt like they didn't belong outside or didn't have time for it, are kind of scared of it. And so I think if you can empower someone to access a space that they've felt marginalized from or excluded from, I think that that can be really powerful. I think also, you know, we read about people going out and doing these exciting adventures and it, I think it reinforces for students, like it doesn't have to just be somebody else in the book. It can be them too. And when they come back and they tell their story, they get to realize that their story matters, their voice matters, and there's a space for it. And so I think those things can be really impactful. And so that's why I don't have students write a research paper at the end of the quarter. I feel from my perspective, what I want them to take away is something a little bit different than that particular skill. And so I don't know if it's more effective. Um, yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's more effective than a more traditional approach, but I think it has some really impactful outcomes. And I see students going out and continuing to engage after class. The, yeah. So I have a group of students who just started the outdoor adventure club. So it's a registered student organization and their whole kind of mission as to get other students involved in getting outside and to help make that possible. And those things that the teaching part kind of aligns with my, my research where it's going on. Two things I want to do. One I want to study, I want to study any correlations there might be between someone having a firsthand personal experience in nature and possibly then be more invested in issues of sustainability and addressing the environmental crisis. And so that's a research project that's emerging out of this. The other component that's emerging out of it is I want to develop, um, a gear lending library because, you know, a lot of students maybe don't have tents or snowshoes or even hiking books.

Maria: 11:41

They are costly a little, but you know, for some students they're not able to afford those resources.

Ellen: 11:46

It can be. And so if we have a gear lending library on campus where students can come check out a tent for the weekend or you know, hiking shoes for a day, you know, whatever type of resources they might need. Um, I think that that would be such a great asset, especially if even the broader Tacoma community could participate in that as well. And so for me, it's about trying to open up access to more people and helping to facilitate that. And also then trying to track what the outcomes of that might be. I can actually resonate a little bit why you said earlier how like, you know, like a lot of students weren't, they never went hiking or they never went camping or anything like that. And for me that happened as well actually. Like think it was a couple of years ago was my first time going camping. I'd never been outside and it was just like an amazing experience and went with my family. So it was really fun. And I was, when you said that, I was like, oh, that's me to build that. That's great. This all came from my very first environmental literature course that I taught my first year here. And um, you know, from, from campus, from some of the buildings, you can see the mountain there. And she pointed to it, the student in class and she said, I've looked at that mountain every day of my life and I've never been to it. I've never been able to go touch it. And it was just so heartbreaking to me to hear that. To think about that. You see this thing, it has a such a huge presence in your everyday life and yet you've never had the opportunity to go touch it. And she had children, she was a single mom, she was working full time going to school full time and she just felt like she just didn't have the means or the time to go access it. And so she decided like this, this was going to be a mission for her, was to get to the mountain. And I knew in that moment that that was going to shape my, my time at Udab Tacoma was going to try and change that. So it came from hearing. Yeah. Hearing that from students. Yeah, because I mean like a lot of places there, even though like you did some places do charge and an animal, like some places like you just don't know how, how to go, you know, like where it is it first of all, where do I park?

Speaker 1: 14:01

Can I, you know, like those little questions that you might be like, oh, they're like silly questions, but they're like, actually, where do I start? What do I go for? Can I park here? Can I go camping? That way? You know, because he's just kind of afraid that you might get like, you know, to get her something for it. It's just not familiar with the spaces. Yeah. And so, you know, one thing that I try to do is I'll do an optional excursion for the class. And so, um, last fall I got a grant from the center for leadership and social responsibility and they funded a trip to Mount Rainier National Park for my students and you know, just so that they could kind of learn like, here's the logistics of trip planning and here's the maps that we'll be using and you know, here's the resources that are available and just modeling it for students who have the same questions, you know? Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, you could actually, you got funded everything so they wouldn't really have to worry about the, you know, the costs or anything like that. It was, the grant was great. So the park gave us, um, a waiver for the entrance fee. So Mount Rainier National Park funded that for us. And then the other grant funded transportation. So we could all just get rent rental vehicles and go up together instead of students having to try and figure out transportation. Hey everyone, it's Maria. We're talking a lot in this episode about being outside. If you're on campus, why not take a walk to the Udub Tacoma Given Garden? The garden is located at the edge on campus on 21st street and Faucet here you'll find garden beds, fruit trees and a native plant walk. This is a great place to take in some nature. Well still in the CD. Also, much of the food grown that given current goes to students through the university on campus, food bank, the pantry. So on the next any day when I grab your books and head to the given guardian to do some studies. So is there a reason why you're so passionate about environmental studies? Is there like, you know, like are you, did you always grow up loving nature or was there just like a transition out of nowhere? Yeah, that's good for me to try and articulate that. And, um, I guess I would say that as a kid, um, my, my parents divorced when I was pretty young and so my dad moved to a farm in rural Indiana and my brother and I would just spend our days like playing in the creek and in the woods and just kind of running around and living this really kind of almost enchanted childhood of like being wild children in the, in the forest. And so I always felt connected to the outdoors. Um, and you know, we would go hiking and car camping and things like that, but I, it wasn't until I really came to Washington that I started doing lots of kind of more extreme outdoor adventures and getting out into the back country and doing wild camping and, and, and just broadening my relationship to the natural world. And I'm really happier sleeping in a tent in the woods than I am anywhere else are running along the ridge in the mountains. And so I think on a personal level, it's connected me to the, I just feel very connected to the natural world. It's just my, my place that I feel like my, my best self. But the other component is also coming from, you know, an awareness and concern for the environmental crisis that is facing us on a global level. And so I think that's also where my, my research also plays into that passion. These are places that are threatened by human activity and they're changing based on human activity. And you know, there's a lot of other species that are implicated in, in that, that, you know, besides humans. And so I feel like, um, there's a personal connection, but there's also just as a global citizen, um, a real sense of responsibility for trying to do what I can as an individual to acknowledge and address those broader concerns. Would you say that's the same reason why you started doing ultra-marathons? Because I heard you, you know, you do ultra marathons.

Ellen: 18:07

So I think, I never imagined that I would be a runner, much less an ultra-marathon runner. Um, because it wasn't something I did when I was younger. I didn't run track or cross country in school. Running like around my block would wind me. And so when I was in my mid-thirties, a friend invited me to do a race and it was just five and a half miles up, but I trained really hard and it was really difficult. But when I was out on the course, I was running across, it's the Mackinaw bridge in Michigan, which spans two of the Great Lakes and the sun was coming up over the lakes and I'm just running in the air was so crisp and I just in that moment was like, wow, I really love this. And you know, shortly thereafter when I moved to Washington, a friend took me running at point defiance on the trails and I just thought like, oh my gosh, what is this? Yeah. And so I started running half-marathons and on trails and I just loved it. So then I decided to train for a marathon. And um, two weeks before my first marathon I broke my ankle and was very frustrated. And so while I was laid up on the couch and a cast recovering, I was just looking at what like, well, what else is there besides marathons? And that's when I started reading about ultra-marathons and there's one in Washington called White River 50 miler. And, um, I was like, I want to run that. So, and so after I healed up, everything was moving toward running the 50 miler. And I remember, you know, the first time I ran 20 miles, I just had this like very moving experience of like, I can't believe my legs have carried me this far. And so I think from there I just grew to love those long distances and training, you know, going out on trails and running for, you know, spending half your day just out there running around in the woods. I don't listen to music or anything, I just kind of let myself get lost in the, in the woods. Um, you know, mentally speaking, not necessarily actually getting, not actually getting lost. I just found something, you know, in my, essentially late thirties kind of found my calling and that was running long distances through the, through the mountains. And it's just, it's empowering to be able to pick up something, you know, at a point in your life where you kind of thought your ways had been set and you'd been on this trajectory and there, there really wasn't anything else. And, um, that I could be good at something and that I could fall in love with something and be so just, I don't know, completed by it. So it's been a great experience and so it's central to me now. Yeah.

Maria: 20:54

So how did you prepare to do all that? Because I mean, that's a lot of running, so I'm assuming you prepare yourself pretty well. How was that process?

Ellen: 21:04

So to prepare for the 50 miler, you know, I would, um, you know, essentially like run mileage throughout the week and then on the weekends do longer runs and each weekend kind of add a little bit more mileage. And I ran a marathon and a, um, a 50 k to prepare for that. And then after I did the 50 miler, I just was so like I just, I was like, oh, this is it, but I kind of want to do a hundred miler. And so from there I ran more 50 milers and more 50 ks, um, just to kind of get used to those longer distances. And then I ran a hundred kilometer, um, I think my, so that's 61 miles and you know, I'd have weekends where I'd run like back to back 15 miles or 20 milers. So it is a lot of training, you know, it isn't a lot of training. Um, but for me it was, I have a tendency to work myself, you know, I will just keep working because it feels like it can never get finished. And so it was actually really good for me to have this reason to put work down and get outside and make time for myself. And so it ended up becoming really therapeutic in a way, um, to just have a reason to like stop what I'm doing because I have to get some miles.

Maria: 22:20

Um, was there ever any like moments where when you were running that you were like, okay, I can't do this, or like moments of doubt or you were like, I just need to give up any moments like that?

Ellen: 22:31

Yeah, I think, I think you go through a lot of emotions when you're running a long distance. Um, and so during my first hundred miler, I went down to that race. It was in, um, Bryce Canyon in Utah. And I went down there thinking like, I had trained so hard, like I'm gonna be in the top 10 or maybe I'll be in the top three or maybe I'll set a course record. You know, I was so, I just felt so confident going in and I ended up about 20 miles in having some serious physical problems. Um, some, you know, uh, I'll spare your listeners, but things went really far south. And, um, I think the hard thing was, was revising my expectations. You know, it was very difficult for me to accept that I was not going to have the spectacular race that I thought I would. In fact, I got to the point where I wasn't even able to run 20 miles into my first hundred miler. I was essentially walking. Uh, and um, so that was a lot of time to be in my own head thinking about like, this isn't going right. I'm better than this, trained so hard. This isn't fair, you know, all this kind of these, these bad emotions. And so the tough part was trying to acknowledge that things were what they were and putting that aside and then just focusing on finishing. And that became important to me just to finish the distance. And maybe I'm just stubborn and, you know, like other people probably would have just said like, this is silly. I'm going to stop. But for me, um, it was important to be able to finish and to not dwell on the race I wasn't having and to just be grateful for the fact that I was still moving through the world, by my own power and I'm in a beautiful place and that's a privilege. And so I had to remind myself that not everyone is that privileged. And, um, you know, one example, I met so many people along the way through that experience. And, uh, one runner stopped at one point. I basically missed the cutoff. So typically they would pull you out of it, race if you miss the cutoff. So I had made it I think 80, 86 miles or so, and then where's the cutoff? And when I came to that realization, you know, I again started to feel sorry for myself and another runner, um, who he was running the 50 mile race. So they started after us, he stopped by me and asked, you know, do I, do you need water? Do you want me to walk in with you? What's going on? And, um, I just just started crying and sad. Like, you know, my race is over and I'm just coming to terms with that. And this guy just lunged at me and like gave me this bear hug that was just so powerful. And he whispered in my ear that everything was gonna be okay and everything happened for a reason and I stopped crying and thanked him and he, he ran off and I saw on his back he had a bib that said, I'm legally blind. And I just thought, wow, you know, like it was just this wake up moment where I was like, you know what, I'm not legally blind. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not disabled in any way. Like I am a capable of still moving through this space in a way that's very privileged. And it was just a, it was a very, very important moment for me to realize like even though that day didn't go as I had hoped or two days as it turned into, um, it was still a very much a privilege to be there and be able to do what I did.

Maria: 26:12

How long does it usually take you to run? Okay. It takes me like at least 20 minutes to run one mile. Maybe more than that. So like you're doing, you're doing a hundred miles though, is that, I'm assuming those are days. Yeah.

Ellen: 26:30

So it depends a lot on the course. So that particular course was, at altitude and it was in, it was very hot, so it was, you know, triple digit weather. Um, and so a lot people quit halfway through the first day because the conditions were so bad. So when you factor that in, um, a lot of people were running like the people who were in the top 10, we're running that race and like 24 to 27 hours, I would say. Um, I think a lot of mountain hundred milers maybe, you know, people kind of fall in that range because you're at elevation, you're climbing a lot, you know, the conditions are really pretty extreme. There are some hundred milers that have less elevation gain and maybe better temperature conditions. And you know, I think people can run those in and 13, 14 hours, which isn't saying I will never be able to do that. Bryce Canyon took me almost 43 hours, which was, um, so you were running during the, during the night, two nights. Because even though I missed the cutoff, I kept going because I was determined to just finish over.

Maria: 27:38

Were you scared to be running at night?

Ellen: 27:41

No, I think I was worried about that in the past. Like I grew up afraid of the dark even as probably older than I would like to admit, afraid of, you know, being out in the woods by myself in the dark. But that's something that ultra-running has helped me conquer is that fear of being alone in the woods at night. And so I think especially when there's so many other things going wrong with your race and if you're fixated on that, you're not worried about being out at night. But on the other hand, it can be pretty incredible. I mean, I remember just seeing so many stars and without the all the light pollution, you see them in a way that you don't see it like here in the city. And so that can be just incredible too, when you hear sounds that you don't hear during the day. And, um, you know, you know that there are other people out there, you know, it's just a very different way to experience the world and to experience nature. So I've grown to really like it.

Maria: 28:45

So going back to you as a professor, um, is that some of the things that students have shared with you as well? The, you know, give them more confidence to be outside, or what are some of the things that the students have shared with you during, you know, the classes I've taken with you? Yeah, well, um, even just last fall I had a student who, um, started hiking more regularly, pretty much once a week. They started hiking and really grew to love it and found a community to do it with. And the last time I spoke with her, she was signing up for a glacier travel class and she was going to summit Mount Baker, you know, and so that's a pretty extreme example. Right. But last summer we went sea kayaking off of Thea Foss Waterway in my wilderness memoir class, my summer class. And I had a student who was afraid of the water. And so I told her, okay, you don't have to, you don't have to go on the kayak if you don't want to. I'm not going to force you to do something, but it's there and here's the ways it's safe and here's the ways we can kind of mitigate any risk. And so she decided to do it. And at one point, um, we were out in the bay kind of at that point and I looked over at her and she was asleep in her kayak because she was so at ease and happy to be out on the water that she decided she was just going to take a nap in her kayak, you know?

Ellen: 30:08

And so to me, that's a pretty incredible thing to overcome. And I'll just, I'll tell you one more example. I think these are kind of representative. You know, I had one student who, um, he hadn't really been on a hike before and decided to go with some friends. This was during a winter class and he wore sweat pants and gym shoes and like stuff that you would not wear to be out in the snow hiking. Right. But he just didn't realize it. And so he tried to get to this lake and he realized he was just so out of shape that it was, he wasn't gonna make it. And his sweat pants, which are cotton and holding all that water was making him cold and so obvious, well and heavy. And so it was just a really kind of defeating experience. And so he realized, you know what, as a student at UW Tacoma, I have a, um, a membership to the University Y. And he's like, I'm going to start going to the Y and I'm going to get in shape and then I'm going to go back and do that hike. And when he gave his presentation, at the end of it, he, he pointed out, he's like, and I'm wearing the sweat pants that I wore that day. And he pulled out the waistband and he had dropped so much weight and gotten so toned and fit from, you know, going to the gym and he felt so good about himself for being motivated to, to make fitness a part of his life. And he hadn't gone back to go on that hike again. But I'm sure that he, you know, that that was definitely going to happen. And so just seeing the different ways that students have engaged with that experience and then moved for, move forward with that as part of their life. Um, for me like that just makes me want to keep doing this.

Maria: 31:47

I think that you could even use that in your research, because I mean, part of your research, if I'm not wrong, um, you said that you want to kind of like, you know, like share those experiences like students who are not even students, but just people in general that encounter nature the first time and how that affects whether they are more, um, you know, whether they care more about nature or like any sustainability issues. And I just feel like that is already an impact within your research relates to it a bit.

Ellen: 32:16

Yeah. Thanks for seeing that. I think that the thing is that right now that's just my own observations. Right? And so what I want my work to start to move toward is gathering data that can quantify this and I don't have a background in that. So once again I will be kind of teaching myself a new fields, but that's part of my next project is trying to collaborate with others who do understand how to develop survey questions and things like that so that I can gather some data that is going to be more, um, it's just gonna offer a different picture than my personal observations have. You know, my personal observations give me the enough evidence I think to move forward with trying to find some, some harder evidence.

Maria: 32:59

Yeah. Yeah, that, that would be really great. Like I would actually want to learn more about that as well because it's really interesting. Like I told you that earlier, I can resonate with a lot of the things you said. And I was just thinking that the students like myself who are also listening to the podcast, you know, like there and be like, Hey, I can actually do this things as well or I can take a class, you know? Yeah, yeah. Take my class. Where can they find you, you know, like is there, do you have any office hours? Any students at my one know more about you?

Ellen: 33:28

Yeah, so um, I definitely have office hours. I hold them in the teaching and learning center and the TLC because that's where students hang out. So that's where I go for office hours this quarter. They are Monday and Wednesday from noon to 1:00 PM but I also do things by appointment. So if that doesn't work for a student's schedule, I can, you know, they can just reach out to me. My email is e B a y e r zero five@ UW,edu. And so if they send me an email with some suggestions for times that work for them, we can work something out.

Maria: 34:01

That would be very great. Yeah. Well, things were coming to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Like I'm really like excited about everything that you're doing and that actually got me motivated to do, you know, start training for something too. Yeah. It's exciting to do something outside. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you to our guests and a big thing. Get to our senior lecturer, Nicole Blair for letting us play your music on the show. Thank you to moon y'all recording studio and thank you for joining us today.